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When I discard and sacrifice the wall, if I pay the madness cost of the discarded card, can I get it back? It only comes back if it's in my graveyard, right?

[[Pitchstone Wall]] [[Obsessive Search]] [[Basking Rootwalla]]

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2 Answers

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If you want the short answer, skip to the bottom. Otherwise, there's a wall 'o rules text incoming. :P

702.32a [...] Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may exile it instead of putting it into his or her graveyard" and "When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."

When you discard a card with Madness, you first must choose whether to discard it normally (into the graveyard) or into the Exile zone. The game treats these the same way when it comes to effects that care about discards, laid out in rule 614.6.

614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities.

All of this means that Pitchstone Wall will indeed trigger off of the discard of a Madness card, which allows you to sacrifice it.

The issue then becomes what happens when you choose to sacrifice the Wall to the trigger. If you discard the madness card normally (into your graveyard, choosing not to use the Madness replacement ability at all), Pitchstone Wall gets to return the card to your hand as per usual.

If you choose to discard the madness card to the Exile zone, and then choose not to pay the madness cost, putting the card into the graveyard, things are a little more difficult.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are six exceptions to this rule:

400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.

This means that the Pitchstone Wall tracks the discarded card to the exile zone, and recognizes it as the discarded card. However, even if the card were to remain in the exile zone for some reason, Pitchstone Wall could not return it to your hand because it specifies to look for the discarded card in the graveyard, where the card is not. Due to rule 603.6, the card discarded into the exile zone will not be returned.

603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called "zone-change triggers." Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent's hand.

If you choose not to pay the madness cost, the discarded, exiled card is put into the graveyard from the exile zone. This movement is separate from the discard that the Pitchstone Wall is tracking, and thus makes the Pitchstone Wall's ability stop recognizing the madness card put in the graveyard as the card you had discarded previously.

This means that even though you discarded the card, and it ended up in the graveyard, the Pitchstone Wall can not return it to your hand because the quick trip to exile before hitting the graveyard has thrown the Pitchstone Wall off of the card's trail.

If you actually play the card with the madness cost, the discarded card goes from exile onto the stack, then resolves, and goes to the graveyard (or play, depending.) This makes for a full 2 zone changes after the Pitchstone Wall has triggered, something not even all the Pitchstone Walls in the world could manage to follow. :P

SHORT ANSWER:

A madness card will not be returned to your hand by Pitchstone Wall if you choose to follow any of the steps set out by the madness ability itself, even if you ultimately choose not to cast the card for its madness cost.

Hope this clears everything up.

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Wow, thanks for the extremely detailed answer. I wonder how many players that actually played with the card at the time knew this. – ripper234♦ Dec 5 at 18:33
I never knew anyone can master such knowledge of the rules. Kudos. Although, I'm still confused about triggers and stack order. Suppose I discard the card to the exile zone. Then two abilities trigger: the second madness ability and the Pitchstone's ability. Being the controller of both cards, I can choose the order in which they resolve; so I can choose to have the madness ability resolve first, which would end up with the card in my graveyard (whether or not it was on the stack at some point). So why can't the wall find it when its ability resolves? – Avish♦ Dec 6 at 14:09
The wall can't find it due to rule 400.7. The exception in 400.7d allows the Pitchstone Wall to find the madness card during the zone change from either Hand to Exile (if you choose to exile it in the resolution of the first madness ability) or Hand to Graveyard (if you choose not to.) However, the exception only lets it track the card during the move that triggered the ability. Since the ability was triggered by the move from Hand to Exile or Hand to Graveyard - not Exile to Stack, Stack to Graveyard or Exile to Graveyard - it can't follow the madness card through any of the latter moves. – Zeitgeist Dec 7 at 11:43
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The rules say:

702.32a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player's hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. "Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may exile it instead of putting it into his or her graveyard" and "When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."

i'm not sure if i answered some madness related question wrong in the past. Madness is a replacement ability, but it replaces the discard with another discard, which means that the modified event will really trigger the pitchstone wall. note that such thing is not universally true for replacement effects:

614.6 If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

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What's the stack order, then? For the discarded card to be in the graveyard when Pitchstone Wall's ability resolves, it should be madness-discarded and cast before the ability resolves... I'm getting confused. – Avish♦ Nov 29 at 7:31
madness is two abilities, one static, one triggered. the triggered madness ability triggers from the same event as Pitchstone Wall, so the normal rules for multiple triggered Abilities apply: – Silly Freak♦ Nov 29 at 13:28
"603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolve state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority." – Silly Freak♦ Nov 29 at 13:29
I'm not sure what is your answer. Does it work? – ripper234♦ Nov 29 at 15:30
So I discard the card, then choose to stack the madness triggered ability on top of the wall's triggered ability. Then the madness ability resolves and the card is put on the stack on top of the wall's ability. Then the card resolves and goes to the graveyard, and then the wall's ability resolves and gets it back... Correct? – Avish♦ Nov 29 at 16:07
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